Comments on from the hills and hollers: The GCR and Blogging

Dave, I think you are correct in your assumption....

2009-07-01T09:01:46.957-06:00

Dave,

I think you are correct in your assumption. It seems obvious that the way each of us looks at the CR is tilted by our own experience. I definitely experienced the bad side, or the bad people might be a better observation. What God intends for good is almost always messed up by people that are focused on the wrong things like power and control. I pray that he keeps our focus true. This fighting just for the sake of fighting is getting real old.

Just think what could be done for the kingdom with half the passion that attacks on this blog are written with.

Tom, I'll take a crack at this one: "With all th...

2009-06-30T20:25:55.726-06:00

Tom,

I'll take a crack at this one:

"With all the "liberals" exorcised from the SBC why all the continuing problems today?"

The reason for continuing problems is humans are depraved even at conception.

Secondly, obviously all the liberals are not gone. We are also seeing a new wave of Antinomians arise in the SBC.

Those factors will always be sources of problems for any human entity on earth.

But, we are not as bad off as we could be.

The problems we have are certainly reparable. Great days could certainly be ahead of us.

cb

Robert, Your addressing me has nothing to do with...

2009-06-30T20:19:13.941-06:00

Robert,

Your addressing me has nothing to do with anything Vol's post is about.

You are not well acquainted with the CR, the reasons for the CR or the results of the CR.

That is obvious from your comments.

You have refuted nothing I have ever said with any factual data or personal testimony.

I know who and where Dave is. I know who and where Vol is. They know who and where I am.

All we know about you is you say your name is Robert. Nothing more.

You quote a non-existent pastor for all we know. And what you quote of him is the same tired double-speak of liberals of a by-gone era.

Lay your cards on the table and let's talk. Otherwise, it bothers me none if you never comment toward me again.

The evidence is that you are just another anony coward.

cb

Dave Miller: You said--"What Pressler/Patterson f...

2009-06-30T20:03:49.189-06:00

Dave Miller:

You said--"What Pressler/Patterson figured out was not THAT there should be a conservative resurgence, but how to make it successful.

I was fighting the battle for the Bible before the CR "began" in 1979."

How do you define successful as it relates to the CR? How do you define takeover as it relates to christians?

With all the "liberals" exorcised from the SBC why all the continuing problems today?

How were you fighting the battle for the Bible before 1979?

Dave: Could decline be more than just a matter of...

2009-06-30T19:57:22.189-06:00

Dave:

Could decline be more than just a matter of numbers?

CB, you are right in your last comment. a lot of ...

2009-06-30T19:56:50.185-06:00

CB, you are right in your last comment. a lot of people were upset since Elliott's book in 1961 (?) What Pressler/Patterson figured out was not THAT there should be a conservative resurgence, but how to make it successful.

I was fighting the battle for the Bible before the CR "began" in 1979.

Robert, I am guessing that if we sat down and talk...

2009-06-30T19:54:49.291-06:00

Robert, I am guessing that if we sat down and talked, not on a blog, we might find that we are much closer in perspective than it seems.

Basically, you see some good that came out of the CR, but too much that was wrong.

I see some wrong that happened in the CR, but feel that it was worth it because of the greater good.

Fair?

Tom, the SBC has not declined since the CR. That ...

2009-06-30T19:52:05.802-06:00

Tom, the SBC has not declined since the CR. That is just not factually accurate. Look at Stetzer's research. What was unique about the 2007 stats; what has bothered some of us is the fact that for the FIRST time in a long time, there were signs of statistical decline.

But to say that the SBC has been in decline since the CR is just absolutely not accurate.

As to my previous statement - why did the administrations of the SBC seminaries NOT deal with those liberal professors that were there, if in fact they were the minority?

CB, I will no longer address you unless you actua...

2009-06-30T19:51:55.951-06:00

CB,

I will no longer address you unless you actually come up with a useful thought void of any malicious attack based on ignorance. Have a nice day.

Dave, My opinion is based on direct quotes from P...

2009-06-30T19:50:33.777-06:00

Dave,

My opinion is based on direct quotes from Pressler and Patterson given in interviews after the fact. They basically admitted their plan. I will look up the quotes and get them to you.

You are right. We will probably never agree. Like I said I believe some good things came out of the CR. The cost was just too high

Tom Parker, You like simple questions. You ask th...

2009-06-30T19:39:59.175-06:00

Tom Parker,

You like simple questions. You ask them from time-to-time.

Here is one for you. Were you there?

Did you serve on any board before or after 1979? Did you attend any seminary before 1990? Were you at the FMB or HMB before 1993?

Were you part art of any entity, in any way within the SBC between 1964 and 1993?

cb

Dave, There is one great problem with Robert's th...

2009-06-30T19:33:41.508-06:00

Dave,

There is one great problem with Robert's theory.

You identified it as:

"B) The CR was a "plot" - a power ploy by Pressler and Patterson for blatant political power."

Pressler and Patterson were not really the only primaries of the CR.

Actually they were not the first "movers and shakers" in the movement.

But in the end the CR was truly a grassroots movement.

There were many small church pastors who had gone to our seminaries and heard godless liberalism spewed. Many had gone to one seminary in particular and run into Sodomites on campus.

Many of those boys went to Dallas in 1985, slept in their cars, ate bologna sandwiches and bathed at service stations just to get to vote for Charles Stanley.

Those guys knew the truth of what was going on at the seminaries. They did not need anyone to tell them liberals were in charge of our seminary classrooms.

In 1987, there were guys (pastors) who voted against the Sanctity of Human Life Sunday School lessons at the BSSB. It took two years to get that approved by the trustees.

Those same guys fought the publication of a conservative Bible commentary. It was a battle to get that passed. I am talking about BSSB trustees.

The administration of the BSSB (now LifeWay) fought against both.

There were many liberals roaming the halls of the BSSB in Nashville back then. They were also at the EC. They were in Richmond, Atlanta and all the seminaries.

Innocent administrators? I would like to have known one.

cb

Dave Miller: You said--"If the innocent professor...

2009-06-30T19:29:08.668-06:00

Dave Miller:

You said--"If the innocent professors and school administrators had dealt with the liberal profs instead of defending them, the CR would never have been necessary!"

That is an incredible quote by you. PP and PP were going to instigate the CR regardless. I do not believe your quote.

Was the CR really necessary? 30 years have been lost because of it.

CB: You continue the name calling don't you. So ...

2009-06-30T19:25:22.619-06:00

CB:

You continue the name calling don't you. So unbecoming of you. I did not support the CR and you were there and everywhere and you know it was necessary. But what is inerrancy, what is a liberal? Why a complete takeover of the SBC? Why the decline in the SBC since the CR? Do you realize there are a million questions to be asked and answered everytime you and others raise the arguement of the reason for the CR.

It was about power and control.

Here's one other thought to ponder. If the inno...

2009-06-30T16:04:09.765-06:00

Here's one other thought to ponder.

If the innocent professors and school administrators had dealt with the liberal profs instead of defending them, the CR would never have been necessary!

Robert, You got to the heart of the fundamental ...

2009-06-30T15:58:54.916-06:00

Robert,

You got to the heart of the fundamental question.

You said, "The CR was a plot for power and control that just happened to get rid of a miniscule amount of liberal professors while torching many others that had done nothing wrong. It turned into a witch hunt, plain and simple."

Either:

A) The CR was motivated by a sincere desire to see the direction of the SBC turned away from a nascient and growing liberal trend in schools and some places in the bureaucracy.

B) The CR was a "plot" - a power ploy by Pressler and Patterson for blatant political power.

You are absolutely certain that the CR was "just a plot."

How do you know that?
How do you know the heart intent of the men who led the CR?

I don't know either. I know that I was genuinely concerned at the things I was taught in school - all by SBC seminary grads and future profs.

I had no desire for power - my motivation was the conviction that the SBC was headed leftward and would descend into spiritual oblivion like other denominations that drifted left.

I KNOW that was my motive.

How do you know so certainly that this was not the motive of the leaders?

What evidence do you present to buttress the idea that the CR was "just a plot?"

We will probably never see the CR the same way.

By the way, I have no doubt that there were genuinely conservative men who sided with the moderate/liberal faction and were painted unfairly. I wish it had not been.

I speak from my own experience - it is about as credible as my word, and you don't know me.

But on what basis do you make the strong, blanket statement you make.

I, too, enjoy reasoned dialogue, though frankly I wonder if we will ever be able to convince each other of views we hold.

Tom Parker, you are still a silly child and a gros...

2009-06-30T15:26:33.308-06:00

Tom Parker, you are still a silly child and a gross hypocrite.

You know absolutely nothing about the CR.

cb

"Our Senior Pastor says, “No one is dumb enough to...

2009-06-30T15:24:46.279-06:00

"Our Senior Pastor says, “No one is dumb enough to be 100% wrong”, but at what cost? I am reminded of a time when this country held congressional meetings to search out communists. I believe that the same thing happened within our seminaries. How many innocent professors, teachers, and pastors have we torched in the crusade to rid the SBC of liberalism?"

Robert,

If your pastor actually said this, I can understand why you have a job. He is a liberal also.

Was he even around during the CR? Where and when did he go to seminary? Finally, be a man and tell us his name.

cb

Robert: You said--"How many innocent professors, ...

2009-06-30T11:07:03.822-06:00

Robert:

You said--"How many innocent professors, teachers, and pastors have we torched in the crusade to rid the SBC of liberalism?"

I agree 100% with the above statement of yours.

It was a modern day witch hunt and sadly it was very successful.

David, And just an observation. I don't think you...

2009-06-30T10:44:59.819-06:00

David,

And just an observation. I don't think you could say our numbers are all that stellar since the CBF split off. It is hard to have revival when you spend your time making up battles to fight.

Dave- 1. I don't have a working knowledge of what...

2009-06-30T10:33:32.061-06:00

Dave-

1. I don't have a working knowledge of what the CBF does. I would probably never be a part of what they are doing, even though I am considered a moderate by most. I do not have any desire to put down the SBC. I still think it is the best thing going.

2. I agree that any professor teaching those things should be removed. I said in my post that some good things came out of the CR, even if by pure accident. The problem is that many people see that as the sole purpose of the CR, when it really was just a accidental by product. The CR was a plot for power and control that just happened to get rid of a miniscule amount of liberal professors while torching many others that had done nothing wrong. It turned into a witch hunt, plain and simple.

I appreciate the spirit of your post. I always prefer a friendly intellectual discourse. I tend to react in the same way I am treated.

Robert, it is easy to sit back and take pot shots ...

2009-06-30T10:17:43.939-06:00

Robert, it is easy to sit back and take pot shots at the SBC during a time when our numbers are down.

But I have some questions for you.

1) How are the evangelism and church planting numbers of the CBF right now? If the moderates who left the SBC were the ones with the real heart for mission (BMT, etc) I would expect that they have numbers which would indicate a near-revival. Correct?

2) Do you agree with the following?

*"there is no such thing as predictive prophecy in the Bible." (all such prophecies were written after the fulfillment and then predated.)

*"Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed - they are all just different flags under which God flies his name."

Both of these were taught in Old Testament and Hebrew courses at my Baptist College by graduates of Southern and Southeastern. The prof who taught these things went on to teach at Midwestern Seminary after my college pushed him out.

That same professor suggested to me that I watch the movie "Oh, God" to get my theology straightened out.

Other profs scoffed at the idea of a real, personal being called Satan, ridiculed everything we had learned in Sunday School growing up, denied the substitutionary atonement of Christ and, of course, saw the Bible as riddled with errors and contradictions.

We had a problem in our schools. We dealt with it.

Was there collateral damage? yes.
Did Bible-believing people get labelled liberal because they were on the wrong side of the convention political wrangling? yes. I spoke out against that then and consider it a shame today.
I was actually uncomfortable with some of Dr. Patterson's rhetoric even during the CR. But God uses imperfect people to do his work.

Was the CR necessary? YES! We had to take a stand so we would not follow other liberal denominations into spiritual oblivion.

That's my view. I'll be the good cop while CB waterboards you. But, I would love a response to my questions above.

Robert, Like the old general said in the PI durin...

2009-06-30T10:02:06.005-06:00

Robert,

Like the old general said in the PI during WWII; I'll be back.

Right now I must take care of other things.

cb

You've done it now. Let's rock. I'm big and bad, o...

2009-06-30T09:42:19.238-06:00

You've done it now. Let's rock. I'm big and bad, old and mean. I'm pulling out my thesaurus so I can make up some new names.

All empty threats.

What do Micheal Jackson's rhinestone glove and CB's Bible have in common?

They both sit there in(on) the left hand and serve no apparent purpose.

CB, Just sweep up and turn the lights out when yo...

2009-06-30T09:39:33.538-06:00

CB,

Just sweep up and turn the lights out when you're finished.

David

:)