Comments on from the hills and hollers: Tired of SBC Bad Mouthing

Ain't Jesus wonderful! I'm so happy right now. I...

2009-07-02T15:52:22.076-06:00

Ain't Jesus wonderful! I'm so happy right now. I mean it. I'm not kidding.

Volfan, I consider you a good friend, too. And if I could I'd bake you a big ol' pecan pie and we'd sit on the front porch and drink coffee and dive into that pie. I'd have to make my husband an apple pie, cause that's his favorite. (yes, you can have sweet tea). won't heaven be glorious?

Robert, thanks for answering my question about Pedro. That is sad, very sad. And would make any of us quite distrustful in the future. Am glad he has been found-out.

CB...now, when is a church a church? :) selahV

CB, We have a deal. Just remember my rant started...

2009-07-02T13:27:11.525-06:00

CB,

We have a deal. Just remember my rant started because of the way Vol treated me. I will react no futher as I mentioned before. I think we can all grow given the opportunity to express our viewpoint in a non hostile environment.

Robert, OK. That is good. My goal was to feed you...

2009-07-02T10:59:04.543-06:00

Robert,

OK. That is good. My goal was to feed you a great helping of what you have been dishing out to Vol.

Vol is a good guy with a gracious spirit. He is different from me. I don't mind the "blood" of the fight even the taste of my own.

You had openly stated your purpose to "straighten" Vol out about his "theology."

I had been reading you for two months before I engaged. (busy with papers) I made you my target for my return. I will be gone again for a good while soon. But I do read this blog and a few others when I am gone.

Therefore, I will make a deal with you. You treat Vol with the respect he deserves while I am gone. And when I get back, I won't be mean as a snake to you.

We can certainly fight without being mean. And I am sure we will fight, because we are poles apart.

Is it a deal?

cb

P.S. No such deal can be made with that liberal, heathen, Tom Parker.

CB, I agree that people with liberal views have d...

2009-07-02T09:26:38.297-06:00

CB,

I agree that people with liberal views have done serious damage to the church, the kingdom, probably the whole world. But damage has not been limited to one side. Those that some call fundamentalists have done damage as well. Probably not as much, but damage none the less.

The problem is we have so many labels flying around that we have given up getting to know the real person and what they truly believe. If someone disagrees with us on one point, we label first, attack second, and nobody wins. I am just as guilty of this as the next guy. What can we do to get past it?

This is what I will do.

In the past, I have attacked your intelligence, your theology, your personality, etc.... all because of a disagreement or a knee jerk reaction to an attack on me. We are both members of the SBC. We both support the SBC, even if I am a little critical sometimes. This infighting has to stop if we are going to see the glorious future we both invision.

I mentioned a few days ago that I would not respond to attacks, especially those made in bad taste. I will make one more committment. I will no longer post personal attacks made in bad taste. Now don't get me wrong, I will always defend what I believe the Bible says on every issue, wholeheartedly. I just hope that I will be able to do so with a civil tongue and a calm spirit.

Please feel free to save this post and remind me of it anytime I seem to forget my committment. I trust you will help keep me honest.

Vol, Selah asked me about my reference to "Pedro"...

2009-07-02T09:09:03.887-06:00

Vol,

Selah asked me about my reference to "Pedro" in a previous post. My post was an answer to her question. No point other than that.

Robert, Until Jesus returns we will have to deal ...

2009-07-02T08:43:14.680-06:00

Robert,

Until Jesus returns we will have to deal with Charletons just as we have to deal with liberals.

The truth is that liberals have probably done a greater damage to overall efforts to advance the Kingdom through Great Commission endeavors of Southern Baptists than have the "Pedros" of the world.

cb

Vol, I don't know. It is true that many who spo...

2009-07-02T08:30:43.669-06:00

Vol,

I don't know.

It is true that many who spoke against Johnny Hunt a little over a year ago are now in support of him and his positions.

It could be that Johnny has become more open to hear the hearts of some people. I have not spoken with him and I do not know that for sure. But it could be the case.

David Dockery has always been in touch with a multitude of people of various positions within the conservative ranks of the SBC. I have known him for a long time and I know he is always open to dialogue with people.
(I am not saying we are close, personal friends. I just know him through convention connections and involvements. I first met him in 1987 at the BSSB)
I respect David Dockery greatly as a man of his word and the highest of integrity.

I don't really know Danny Akin that well. He is a seminary president and as such he hears the hearts of many people. It is true that he deals with younger people a great deal. But he also is in constant contact with older guys as well. I worked in a seminary for a long time. I know that pastors, state convention folks, associational missionaries, foreign and home missionaries, SBC entity employees and laymen are constantly in and out of the office of a seminary president.

He will hear a hundred ideas and positions about various topics most every day.

Therefore Danny Akin is hearing what people are saying.

What I do believe to be true is this:

The three men you have mentioned are very theologically sound and are committed to following the inerrant Word of God. I seriously doubt that any one of them would bend or compromise on sound theological issues.

Therefore, I am praying for them that as they do have an opportunity to deal with issues specific to Southern Baptist interest in this hour that God will greatly guard their hearts and they will have wisdom.

Vol, I am also glad you are using the term "Dortian Calvinist" to identify a specific group of people.

Just to call someone a Calvinist is probably too general in the atmosphere we find ourselves at the present.

Vol, I really believe that the greatest days in the history of the SBC could be ahead of us. I just pray that we follow the Word of God without compromise.

The thing that concerns me greatly is that we maintain our strong adherence to a biblical ecclesiology. And, that we do not allow cultural influences to "rewrite" or water down our identity as Baptists.

cb

Robert, What does that prove? So, there was a ba...

2009-07-02T08:17:49.159-06:00

Robert,

What does that prove? So, there was a bad egg abusing the system. He is in the process of being weeded out.

What point are you trying to make by this?

David

I guess Selah said it clearer, because I am pretty...

2009-07-02T08:10:03.704-06:00

I guess Selah said it clearer, because I am pretty sure that is exactly what I said in my answer to "Who should start churches".

Selah,

In my area there was a pastor who decided that he would abuse the system in order to make some money. In the course of 6 months he "started" hundreds of churches. He took out adds in Mexican newspapers asking for pastors for these church starts. He would bring them to the US, set them up in garage churches, and put their wives and other family members "on staff". He would then apply for matching funds from the convention based on the number of people starting the church. He would give the "pastors" a little money, then pocketed the difference. He is being investigated by the FBI.

That is where my "Pedro" comment came from.

Selah, I knew you were kidding. No harm done. I ...

2009-07-02T07:18:12.374-06:00

Selah,

I knew you were kidding. No harm done. I consider you a good friend.

CB, have you noticed that amongst a certain group of bloggers that since the SBC this year...everything is somehow brighter now???? Since the GCR task force, and Dr. Akin speaking at the Founders, and the Baptist 21 meeting, and young, Dortian Calvinists meeting with Dr. Dockery...that all of a sudden, the air is cleaner to breathe in the SBC kingdom?

And, many of the Dortian Calvinists are now buddies with Johnny Hunt and Ronnie Floyd?

Mystifying....aint it? Or, is it?
Hummmmmmmm... What's your take on all of this, CB? What's going on?

David

SelahV, Churches birth churches. No one else has ...

2009-07-02T06:45:48.678-06:00

SelahV,

Churches birth churches. No one else has that mandate.

cb

Volfie, you do know I was kidding don't you? If n...

2009-07-01T23:27:00.846-06:00

Volfie, you do know I was kidding don't you? If not, I am very sorry for my kidding and will not do it again. selahV

CB...churches should start churches and missionari...

2009-07-01T23:25:46.142-06:00

CB...churches should start churches and missionaries should start churches under the watchcare of SBC IMB. At least that's how I see it. I may be ignorant here.

Robert: "The Pedro" and whomever is not quite right in my mind. If an indigenous person is saved and begins to grow in Christ out in the outback without a church within 400 miles and wants to begin a church, are we to say we cannot let those people start a church because they do not have a what? degree? I'm confused what you mean here. selahV

Robert, Again, I ask you who should start churche...

2009-07-01T19:24:31.912-06:00

Robert,

Again, I ask you who should start churches?

cb

That's a good question CB. (He says with a surpris...

2009-07-01T16:46:15.723-06:00

That's a good question CB. (He says with a surprised look) I have been a member of a few churches that have had mission church starts. They were able to help them along until they were strong enough to stand on their own. But I know the idea is to start new works where there are no churches, so this wouldn't work.

I believe there are some skilled people out there trained by the SBC to do the job. I just think it should be a deliberate process, not a fly by the seat of your pants operation. Baptist have been guilty in the past of praising numbers while discounting effectiveness. Yeah we baptized 1000's, but how many disciples did we make. I only have experience of some problems with church starts in Texas. I imagine there are other areas that are seeing success. We just need to be on our toes.

Robert, Who should start churches? cb

2009-07-01T15:59:48.563-06:00

Robert,

Who should start churches?

cb

I have not personally been involved in any church ...

2009-07-01T15:21:33.641-06:00

I have not personally been involved in any church starts. I do have some first hand knowledge about abuses of church start funds and untrained leadership causing serious problems. Problems with the correct theological base that is mentioned by CB.

I think it is acceptable and necesary to be involved in church planting. I think it is not advisable to put all the eggs in one basket, based on the problems I have mentioned above.

There needs to be more oversite of the churches that are being planted. No more free money for Pedro and his wife, with no theological training, to start a church in their garage.

Balanced approach. Trained leaders. Build relationships. Gospel given priority.

Vol, I believe the SBC can have its greatest days...

2009-07-01T15:03:06.370-06:00

Vol,

I believe the SBC can have its greatest days before them.

Many people are seeing the need to change or up-grade the way we do "some things."

Thankfully, those same people understand that we do not need to change "everything."

In addition, and more importantly, those same people know we do not need to change one single thing theologically (Our theology is a biblical theology, especially our ecclesiology)..............And they definitely know we must fight any drift toward Antinomianism.

And many of them (you), Vol, are your age and younger.

That was evident when the floor confirmed and supported the nomination of Bart Barber to a trusteeship of SWBTS in opposition to Wade Burleson's attempt to "bump" him.

There are not as many "bad-mouthers" out there as one might think.

cb

Vol, The question I would like to ask those peopl...

2009-07-01T14:46:20.908-06:00

Vol,

The question I would like to ask those people who are bad-mouthing the SBC for "church planting" efforts is:

In how many church plants have you actively been involved?

cb

Thanks Selah, Ima cuttin' and pastin' that one. L...

2009-07-01T13:15:45.494-06:00

Thanks Selah,

Ima cuttin' and pastin' that one. Lol.

Volfie: Okay, you sorry, good-for-nothing, legali...

2009-07-01T12:49:12.261-06:00

Volfie: Okay, you sorry, good-for-nothing, legalistic abstainer who wouldn't know a moment of moderation at the church buffet! Just kidding! :)

I think there's bad-mouthing enough to go around for all. And it seems one snide remark brings out another and on and on it goes. Personally...I'm just examining my own heart and it is a full-time job...so it's heart to go around examining everyone else's when perfection is so elusive. Ya know? selahV

Hey everyone, let's not forget that the topic of t...

2009-07-01T10:29:48.054-06:00

Hey everyone, let's not forget that the topic of this post is people bad mouthing the SBC, and giving us all a "spanking" at conferences and seminars for our numbers not being great.

It's not time for the comment stream to get off topic, yet.

:)

David

Selah, You are correct. Telling is the most impor...

2009-07-01T10:26:57.955-06:00

Selah,

You are correct. Telling is the most important. The problem with church planting is we are in such a hurry to get more churches, we are not equipping them with effective leaders. The are not trained and not ready for the mission at hand. I think we need to go back to a balanced approach. Needs based ministries and church planting.

Robert, I agree that we should reach out and help ...

2009-07-01T09:31:45.297-06:00

Robert,
I agree that we should reach out and help meet needs of people. I really do. The Bible says we should. Since I received Christ, my heart motivates me to that end. And foremost in our minds, each time we show any act of aid, should be to share Jesus each and every time we do it. Jesus shared the Gospel to produce repentance and then left it with them to go and tell. He went on to another person at the well, another group to feed, another leper to heal. Jesus was more about the Living Water to drink than the water to draw from a well.

I think we need to be far more concerned about saying Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. "Silver and gold, have I none...but". And we need more people to go tell whether they are building churches, preaching in them, or teaching from them. They still need to tell. And that is the greatest hindrance. No praying or telling. (and of course going). selahV

Jesus Christ himself modeled meeting peoples perci...

2009-07-01T09:07:58.561-06:00

Jesus Christ himself modeled meeting peoples percieved needs, hunger for example, in order to share His gospel with them. No door to door knocking. No Tuesday night visitation. No week long tent revivals. Just Christ healing, feeding, teaching, and serving.

The Gospel is the single most important thing in the world. But you might as well share it with the wall if you don't follow Christ's example of how to share it. Build relationships. Serve. Meet needs. Then meet their greatest need.

On a different note- Anyone here have Dr. Fish for evangelism. One of the best professors I have ever taken.