Comments on from the hills and hollers: My Concerns with what the GCR Could Lead Us To

I think Page Brooks held a fair line in his articl...

2009-07-17T14:21:25.974-06:00

I think Page Brooks held a fair line in his article, "What Can We Learn from Mark Driscoll?" - http://www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=30903

One just never knows... Jim

2009-07-03T22:33:29.527-06:00

One just never knows...

Jim

Jim, and here I thought I was being funny. :0))) ...

2009-07-03T20:22:10.410-06:00

Jim, and here I thought I was being funny. :0))) giggle, giggle. selahV

SelahV, Sometimes you are very sinister. :-) Jus...

2009-07-03T19:23:50.693-06:00

SelahV,

Sometimes you are very sinister. :-)

Just jokin'

cb

Jim, it means the GCR is working. :) selahV

2009-07-03T19:09:46.406-06:00

Jim, it means the GCR is working. :) selahV

Does this mean I'm becoming a curmudgeon or is CB ...

2009-07-03T12:46:19.285-06:00

Does this mean I'm becoming a curmudgeon or is CB becoming kinder and gentler??

Ok I'll roll over in my yet to be dug grave CB a...

2009-07-03T12:45:15.638-06:00

Ok

I'll roll over in my yet to be dug grave

CB and I agree on an issue, first time since CB and Wade met with Jimmy Carter :)

Jim Champion

Jim, I spoke to my concerns as to the "make-up" o...

2009-07-03T12:07:41.043-06:00

Jim,

I spoke to my concerns as to the "make-up" of the Task Force on John Killian's blog. I agree with you about that.

cb

Vol, You said: "I would be thankful for the CR e...

2009-07-03T12:05:34.434-06:00

Vol,

You said:

"I would be thankful for the CR even if it meant that our membership declined greatly, and even if it meant that CP giving went down greatly. It was the right thing to do...no matter what it cost us."

A-MEN.

Before the CR things were just that bad. The SBC was going down the tubes.

As Larry Holly said; We would see the SBC being "run by Methodists and Sodomites" had the CR not happened.

cb

CB Like you, I actually hope the GCR "works" what...

2009-07-03T12:00:34.839-06:00

CB

Like you, I actually hope the GCR "works" whatever that means.

There are a couple things I dont understand - as hard a time as I give Volfie, his church is incredibly supportive of the CP. I know we dont like litmus tests (mainly because it would throw too many mega church leaders out of SBC leadership...), but why not put more pastors from churches like Volfie's in leadership, and publicize the fire out the fact that they are in leadership, because they lead the way in CP giving. But that just seems to logical to a simple mind like mine.

My second problem is that the leadership council of the GCR is to white, to male and to old, for all of our talk about racial reconciliation, when it comes to the glamor committees, nothing changes. Would it have hurt to have more African American, Hispanic, Asian or women on the committee. I think the GCR committee would have benefited from a more well rounded group.

Third problem - for all of its past problems, the BGCT has (for the most part) gotten its house in order. They accomplish great works across the state of TX, from loaning churches money for building, supporting Baptist colleges, some admittedly more moderate seminaries, Buckner Benevolence (the list is much to long to go into detail over). Yet the BGCT will be demonized by the the GCR for "keeping" so much money. I think most of the other state conventions will feel the same way and will not be big GCR supporters.

Jim Champion

Jim, Thank God for the CR. If not, those liberal...

2009-07-03T09:47:26.885-06:00

Jim,

Thank God for the CR. If not, those liberals in the SBC would have continued to increase. I would be thankful for the CR even if it meant that our membership declined greatly, and even if it meant that CP giving went down greatly. It was the right thing to do...no matter what it cost us.

Bill,

I'm trying to trust this task force. It looks like a good one. But, my concerns come from talking to different "young Pastors" and those that are gung ho about keeping the "young Pastors" in the SBC, and from hearing the talk at the Convention about us keeping the "young Pastors" in the SBC, and from the one's who are sympathetic with the Acts 29 network...which is very friendly towards the bar and cussing and sex crowd.

But, like CB, I'm praying that this will all turn out good, and that the GCR will be a good thing. And, until I see different, then my concerns will remain just that...concerns...my personal concerns. My hope is for greater things to come from this.

David

Jim, I think you do have a point about CP giving ...

2009-07-03T09:13:19.941-06:00

Jim,

I think you do have a point about CP giving when you say:

"More and more mega churches are giving less and less to the CP, CP giving is down (has not come close to keeping up with inflation over the years) as more and more churches follow the lead of the mega churches."

The level of giving for Southern Baptist churches is now just a little above 6 percent.

A friend who watches this situation very closely recently stated:

"Consider this past year as an example. If we had maintained the 10 percent level of giving, then the receipts for the SBC alone would have $869 million instead of $539 million. That is a 61 percent differential. The additional amount going to the IMB would have funded the present shortfall they are experiencing. It would have meant more funds for every missions effort in SBC life. There would have been much more money for the seminaries and other entities in Baptist life.

Remember that is just one year: 2008. If you add the cumulative of the past 20 years, you would be astounded. The point I am making is the same one others have made on the national level. We don't have a funding problem but a faith problem! The real issue is personal stewardship on the part of Baptists who, like other evangelicals, are not being good stewards of their resources. Debt and economic upheaval are only the symptoms of the problem."

I think that makes sense relating to our present economic problems in the SBC.

cb

, As you would imagine, I do disagree with you ab...

2009-07-03T09:01:24.024-06:00

,

As you would imagine, I do disagree with you about the CR.

There were more than a "few true liberals" within the SBC prior to the beginning of the CR, which actually started before 1979 as we both know, because we both have been around the SBC for a good while.

Frankly, there were far more than a few true liberals at the BSSB alone.

Jim, Bold Mission Thrust would have never worked with the people in leadership at the FMB at the time. Frankly, there was a great number of liberal missionaries on the field at the institution of the BMT. What they would have considered "Bold Missions" would have constituted little more than some very expensive social ministry projects.

I am praying for the GCR to be a biblical effort at fulfilling the Great Commission. I ask you to join me.

We both realize (because we both have been around for a while) that a thousand things could go wrong with the effort at hand to have a resurgence of Great Commission commitment in the SBC.

Yet, I hunger to see us take advantage of the present opportunity we have in the world to be far more involved in Kingdom building than ever before.

cb

David: I understand your concern over the things ...

2009-07-03T08:13:31.273-06:00

David: I understand your concern over the things you are afraid of happening, I guess I don't understand why you are afraid they are going to be part of the GCR. Before the convention, most of the concern was about SBC restructuring. What has changed? Is there something in the makeup of the committee, or the person who made the motion, or the persons who created the draft GCR document (which was not approved by the SBC) that lead you to believe they are in favor of drinking in church and deviant sex?

I understand that there are persons in the SBC who respect Mark Driscoll, who seems to have become another SBC bogeyman (rightly or wrongly, I don't care for his stuff myself), but everyone who is worried seems to be worried particularly about him and his influence. Is the GCR committee comprised of Driscollites? (I barely know of any of the committee).

Do you truly think that this committee would come out and recommend that we put bars in our sanctuary and start publishing sex manuals?

Just havin a little fun boys, it is a holiday afte...

2009-07-03T07:41:57.918-06:00

Just havin a little fun boys, it is a holiday after all!

I was reacting to volfies worries on his post - not the old, white, male throwback to the 50s makeup of the GCR board who will spend lots of money, have lots of meetings and accomplish very very very little.

I find a bit of humor in the fact that the "conservative resurgence", which also, in the final analysis accomplished little - yes there were a few true liberals that got thrown out, but other than that not much else.

Here is what did happen
Bold Mission Thrust (GCR Part 1) was thrown over the side necessitating the need for GCR part II.

More and more mega churches are giving less and less to the CP, CP giving is down (has not come close to keeping up with inflation over the years) as more and more churches follow the lead of the mega churches

Result - fewer missionaries, seminaries laying off employees.

Let me know when there are more leaders of the SBC who follow in the Frank Page model of leading their churches to give more.

The SBC would be better off if the moderates were baaaaack.

Jim Champion

Jim, What CB said. And, I voted for the task for...

2009-07-02T22:38:36.276-06:00

Jim,

What CB said. And, I voted for the task force...as did most of the people I know...in fact, at the moment, I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone who did not vote for it.

So, what's your point?

David

Jim, Name one member of the GCR Task Force that i...

2009-07-02T20:26:51.679-06:00

Jim,

Name one member of the GCR Task Force that is not a conservative and does not adhere to the fundamentals of the faith and who did not fully support the CR.

cb

The GCR is proof that the fundies lost and the mod...

2009-07-02T19:44:22.645-06:00

The GCR is proof that the fundies lost and the moderates are baaaaaaack

Jim Champion

Peter, Thank you, my brother. David

2009-07-02T14:06:03.466-06:00

Peter,

Thank you, my brother.

David

David, Thanks for a heart-felt position and revea...

2009-07-02T14:00:07.693-06:00

David,

Thanks for a heart-felt position and revealing your impressions concerning where we may be headed if certain new, up & coming leaders have their way. I share many concerns with you.

Continue to be a bright light, my brother David.

With that, I am...
Peter

Biff, You sure worked at the following strawman an...

2009-07-02T13:57:50.965-06:00

Biff,
You sure worked at the following strawman and it is sure one "h" of a good one:
"Well, my concern is that the GCR could lead to us joining with certain groups to start Churches and do missions that I could never feel good about. I do not want to start Churches that have Pastors preaching on “The 6 Different Positions of Satisfying Sex,” and then telling their people that on their way out the door that each couple will receive the video by Darryl “Boom Boom” Fannah called “Darryl’s Illustrative How To’s of Enjoyable Sex.” And, then they are also told that sex toys will be available in the lobby for them to purchase.I also don’t want to start Churches with Pastors who get into the pulpit and say,”Well, Da_ _ it, I’m mad as h_ll at the Devil, and I’m tired of his sh_t!” I don’t want to start Churches, nor support missionaries, who are drinking a Bud Lite while preaching. I don’t want to support missionaries and start Churches with people who start off their worship services with AC/DC’s “Highway to Hell,” or with Foreigners “It Feels Like the First Time.”"
How long did it take to make all that horse manure up?

Just so you know Vol, I have changed my name, kep...

2009-07-02T13:40:51.863-06:00

Just so you know Vol,

I have changed my name, kept the pic so you know it's me, and discontinued Volfan's Nemesis. I look forward to cordial dialogue.

AC/DC maybe, but Foreigner? I don't think so. The...

2009-07-02T13:36:38.713-06:00

AC/DC maybe, but Foreigner? I don't think so.

There are ways to build relationships and be in relationships with non-Christians that do not compromise the higher standard we are called to. There must be a recognizable difference. Something that the lost person can see and desire.

Look for other common ground. Are you neighbors with a lost person? Do your kids go to school with lost people? Are they involved in sports or music together? Do you work with lost people? There are lots of ways to create common ground without getting drunk or discussing sexual techniques with them.

Ron, Thanks for your words, Brother. David

2009-07-02T12:13:43.730-06:00

Ron,

Thanks for your words, Brother.

David

David, This is nothing new. I remember when Jim B...

2009-07-02T11:55:18.556-06:00

David,

This is nothing new. I remember when Jim Bakker made the proclamation that he was making "better bait" to attract followers.

I guess some think that the Gospel needs a drink or sex in order to make it more palatable and/or relevant to this generation.

However, you are most correct in your assertion. The power of salvation is in the Good News itself: Jesus Christ. The Gospel does not need anything to make it more appealing.

Blessings,

Ron P.